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Advice or Help Appreciated re Chooks

vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
edited November 2006 in Poultry Health and Welfare
Hi There, I have two chooks and my Barred Rock currenty has runny/watery poo. Often lately it's a mustard colour. She's had it for a while, and I notice she has grown alot slower and is alot smaller than my other sussex chook. (Is this because they are naturally smaller than the sussex? I'm not sure what it could be.. there are no other obvious symptoms of sickness. The other thing I would appreicate advice on is in the coup we have, the floor has a wire netting and when they poo, it collects on the ground. It's impossible to remove as it sits down in between the wire mesh. I used to move the coup around weekly so they could enjoy new grass - but I have stopped this as the lawn is looking very patchy. So there is only dirt as the grass has died. Firstly do they need grass during the day while I am at work (I let them out for one hour in the am and in the pm where they eat lots of greens).

As I menionted, the poo collects and is impossibe to clean - because they stand on it and it flattens down on the wire mesh. Should I be putting lots of hay on the ground so they poop on that - and then remove that weekly/fortnightly? I realise hygiene is important so want to do the best for them and am afraid that the coup may be making one of the chooks sick.

Also - when a cat came around one day, and they were very stressed one of them let out an egg prematurely - I gather they do this due to the stress? The egg was not ready and very soft. Is this normal? They have laying pellets and I feed them grit and crushed egg shells so they are getting calcuim - so I gather it wasn't due to a lack of calcuim?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't know any one in NZ with chooks and there are no forums I know of that can provide advice.

Regards Viv
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Comments

  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited September 2006
    Hi Viv... I come from Australia.. welcome


    Hi There, I have two chooks and my Barred Rock currenty has runny/watery poo. Often lately it's a mustard colour. She's had it for a while, and I notice she has grown alot slower and is alot smaller than my other sussex chook.

    Have you wormed them Viv... if not the mustard droppings is a sign that they have worms.. if one has them then they probably both have them, I would suggest you get some worming medication ... Piperazine will treat the large round worms.. but nothing else.. so try and get a product that has an ingredient in it called Levamisole.. I use one for Pigs and Poultry.. called Nilverm.. I got it from my feed store in the cattle section
    (Is this because they are naturally smaller than the sussex?

    What breed is she ?
    I'm not sure what it could be.. there are no other obvious symptoms of sickness.

    furthing down your post you mention also soft shelled eggs.. this is another reason why this bird is unwell.. she is the one laying the soft shelled eggs... its very painful for them to lay them

    Put 1 desertspoon of cod liver oil into a small amount of the dry feed for a week and see if that helps her .. if it doesn't then stop it ok.. and let me know and I will suggest something else

    It must be cod liver oil.. not another oil by the way
    The other thing I would appreicate advice on is in the coup we have, the floor has a wire netting and when they poo, it collects on the ground. It's impossible to remove as it sits down in between the wire mesh. I used to move the coup around weekly so they could enjoy new grass - but I have stopped this as the lawn is looking very patchy. So there is only dirt as the grass has died.

    Do you have predators... is that why you have the wire mesh on the bottom of the cage.. foxes or anything every tried to get to the birds at all... if not .... Why don't you remove the wire mesh on the bottom.. the birds would love to have dirt to dust bath in and you wouldn't need to move it .. just clean under it once a week
    Firstly do they need grass during the day while I am at work (I let them out for one hour in the am and in the pm where they eat lots of greens).

    If they are getting greens then having them all day isn't necessary.. they must have food and especially water all the time during the day and shade
    They do tend to suffer from heat stroke if left in the sun
    As I menionted, the poo collects and is impossibe to clean - because they stand on it and it flattens down on the wire mesh. Should I be putting lots of hay on the ground so they poop on that - and then remove that weekly/fortnightly?

    No... hay or straw when it gets wet starts to break down.. this then sends off spores.. these get into the birds lungs and cause respiratory problems that can't be fixed.. so no .. if you can.. remove the wire mesh and allow them to get stuck into the dirt.. they will love it .. make sure you put them some place you won't mind the grass turning into dust.. maybe you can have two spaces.. one you move them to and clean up the other and then visa versa when its cleaning time
    I realise hygiene is important so want to do the best for them and am afraid that the coup may be making one of the chooks sick.

    I don't think its the coop..

    If you can't remove the wire mesh from the bottom of the coup.. then your going to have to tip it up on its side to get the droppings off somehow.. too much will cause eye problems if the ammonia builds up

    Also - when a cat came around one day, and they were very stressed one of them let out an egg prematurely - I gather they do this due to the stress?

    If they aren't used to seing a cat.. they will become stressed yes
    I have 4 cats.. they sit in with the chickens and walk amongs them... they are too large for my cats to see them as lunch.. only when they are less then 16 weeks old do cats see them as a possible meal.. so don't worry about the cats.. unless you have wild feral cats.. they will take a fully grown chicken if they are hungry enough
    The egg was not ready and very soft. Is this normal?

    As I said I think this the problem with your bird.. she is laying soft shelled eggs... they are very hard for the birds to expell.. they have nothing to press against.. do you birds have a perch at night.. this is a must with a bird that is laying soft shelled eggs... she must be able to perch so when she goes to sleep the egg can just fall away from her other wise it is held inside her and may break and cause poisoning or worse
    They have laying pellets and I feed them grit and crushed egg shells so they are getting calcuim - so I gather it wasn't due to a lack of calcuim?

    They need shell grit or crushed oyster shell to help with egg shell formation .. the egg shells aren't enough ok

    Grit helps them with digestion.. it has nothing to do with egg shells

    Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't know any one in NZ with chooks and there are no forums I know of that can provide advice.

    Regards Viv

    In the next post I am going to post information on Egg bound hens.. I suggest you copy it onto your computer in case you need it .. never know with this girl ok

    And it good to have some back up just in case
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited September 2006
    Egg bound hens

    A hen is said to be egg bound when she fails to lay her egg
    This is a common condition, and may result from inflammation of the oviduct, malformed or double yolker egg, or a too large egg in a young pullet

    She will sit like a penguin
    She will bawk bawk bawk
    The bird seems very restless
    She will drink little and eat little
    She will tend to stand all hunched up
    She visits the nest regularly in an attempt to lay her egg
    Hew oviduct may end up protrude due to excessive pushing by her to eject the egg; internal haemorrhage or exhaustion may occur and the fowl may die
    She may smell badly
    Her vent will look quite red and protrude
    She may have faecal matter that has built up behind the egg, if you see white liquid that will be her urates trying to pass (urine in chickens)

    Sit her in a tub of warm soapy water
    Make sure the vent is submerged for about 30 minutes, this may seem like a long time, but you have to relax the vent area and make is subtle for the egg to pass through, it really does help the hen, 85% of the time this will be all that you will need to do for her and the egg will pass out with a little push from her

    You can rub some lubricant around the vent area if you think that may help too, usually it doesn’t help the bird, but for some reason it helps the owners feel better that they are doing something , KY jelly, petroleum jelly, Vaseline or Olive Oil all work fine. But seeing as the egg is stuck further up this will probably help you feel better and do nothing for the hen

    Make sure you isolate her from the other hens, or they will peck at her vent causing more damage

    Put her into an isolation cage, put plenty of news paper down first and then put heated towels down they will act like a heat pad for her, no drafts when she is wet or she will catch a chill
    You can heat up towels in your microwave, works a treat
    If you have a heat pad that would be even better, put plenty of towels over it or it will get messy
    Leave her for a little while to see if she passes the egg, if not, repeat the warm water and soap again

    Some people just use the heating pads, this sometimes seems to relax the muscles and allow the egg to slip out

    If this doesn’t work, you may have to resort to removing the egg manually, not a nice task, and she will complain about what you are doing bitterly, you will need two people to do this task

    Using KY jelly, Petroleum jelly or Vaseline, insert your finger in the vent
    With your other hand you can press gently on her abdomen moving the egg down the oviduct towards the cloaca

    Once you can see the egg, if it won’t pass, then rupture the egg and gently remove all the shell
    Some have suggested you use a sharp instrument, I would not recommend this at all it could result in causing the hen internal injuries

    The shell of the egg will be very sharp when broken and could also damage the chicken internally

    Once you have broken the shell, make sure you remove every particle carefully
    The cloaca should then be washed with a weak warm water/salt solution, this is to make sure all the egg contents and shell has been removed from inside the hen, if it isn’t it could cause bacteria to start growing inside her, and then you’ve got an even bigger problem to solve

    Once the egg has ejected you will want to keep an eye on her for a while
    There may be another egg backed up in her oviduct system, especially if she lays an egg every day or every other day

    Sometimes they absorb the egg, but this is very unlikely and very unusual
    If you can’t find the egg and it has gone from the hen, more than likely she has eaten it shell and all

    If it has ruptured inside her, you should look for small pieces of shell, or evidence of any cuts around the vent area
    Just remember while your looking and sticking your finger in places she would prefer you didn’t, the egg shells can be quite sharp and may cut you and her
    If you do find any cuts around her cloaca, rinse with hydrogen peroxide
    Watch her for listlessness, dull eyes, and signs of fever
    Infection can come on pretty quick

    Keep a close eye on her, this could happen again to her and she will need immediate action to fix the problem

    Complications After Egg Binding
    http://www.vetafarm.com.au/manage/do***ents/Complications After Egg Binding.pdf
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited September 2006
    Complications after egg binding


    Isn’t it interesting how your perceptions change with time! Once upon a time, when treating egg bound birds my first consideration was to get the egg out of the bird - the reasoning being that the egg was the cause of the problem and once removed the problem disappeared.
    During many years of treating egg bound birds I have come to realize that the egg is not the only consideration when dealing with these birds.

    The first thing to assess when you find a “bound bird“ is whether it is actually egg bound! Often people jump to conclusions when they find a hen on the floor with a swollen abdomen - not all these are egg bound. You should be able to feel the hard egg in the lower abdomen.

    Catching up birds that are in the process of laying may actually cause the egg to stop moving and then they become bound!! Be careful that you do not overly interfere with the egg laying process.

    The next important consideration is the well being of the hen. If the bird has been bound for some time she may well be in a critical condition because of changes to blood flow to the kidneys.

    Birds that are bright and happy, but have an egg stuck should be treated conservatively (that’s vet speak for do nothing). Many of these birds will pass the egg in due course. Often the larger the bird the more tolerant they are of egg binding.

    Many of the Ostrich we dealt with in the past few years would have a uterus full of old eggs that did not pass yet they appeared very normal, yet a finch that is truly egg bound is an emergency.
    Once the egg is removed the bird may not necessarily be cured. Many of these birds have underlying conditions that need treatment if the bird is to breed again (and that is generally the aim).
    Getting the Egg Out


    Removing the egg may be difficult or at worst life threatening to the bird. Applying oil to the vent is about as useful as applying it to the birds left ear. The egg will be lodged in the uterus or shell gland, oil on the vent only makes you feel better it does nothing for the bird apart from give it an oily vent!
    The general approach is:
    ·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Get the bird in a warm environment - about
    28 - 30 0C

    ·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Raise the humidity to greater than 80% relative humidity
    ·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Crop needle the bird with a dose of Poly Aid
    Plus with some Calcivet added


    ·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Keep Spark Electrovet in the drinking water. (Electroylytes)
    ·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Monitor the bird for 24 hours. If there is no improvement then get help.

    When we have the egg out we must then think about what else could be happening in those birds.

    Often they have a severe uterine infection.

    Proving this in the live bird is difficult, so you should treat them all as if they have an infection.

    Give them either injectable antibiotics (Psittavet) or twice daily doses of Amtyl for three days.

    Eliminating uterine infections will improve the birds chance of laying normally.
    The other medical problem these birds suffer is acute, severe inflammation of the uterus or shell gland.

    This may lead to scar or adhesion formation. I always give a large dose of potent anti inflammatory (Avigesic) when treating these birds.

    Prevention is always more economical than treatment. Be prepared to change things (or for individual hens) if you have a recurrent problem.

    1 - over fat hens will bind more frequently than fit hens.
    2 - birds that lack adequate calcium or Vitamin D3 will bind because their muscles are not strong enough to expel the egg. A bird that binds with a soft-shelled egg generally has a calcium/D3 deficiency. Breeders should be on a Calcium /Vit D3 supplement (Calcivet) during the egg laying period.
    3 - a multitude of diet factors can cause egg-laying problems. Reassess your diet with someone who has knowledge of avian nutritional needs.
    4 - recurrent infections (misshapen, malformed eggs are often due to uterine infections) - you need veterinary advice. Just as “oils ain’t oils”, antibiotics ain’t antibiotics, some are better at penetrating into the uterus than others.
    5 - if a hen egg binds in two successive seasons, she should be culled from your breeding programme.

    (From Issue 4 VetaClub Newsletter)
    VETAFARM

    Office Address 3 Bye Street Wagga Wagga NSW, 2650 AUSTRALIA
    Postal Address PO BOX 5244 Wagga Wagga NSW 2650 AUSTRALIA
    Tel: (02)69 256 222 Fax: (02)69 256 333
    Email: vetafarm@vetafarm.com.au
    www.vetafarm.com.au
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited September 2006
    Just wanted to say that is so helpful - I have been worried and not known what to do or where to go - I will take your advice and let you know how I get on!

    thanks a million!
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited September 2006
    Another one - can I get them (the worms) off the chooks? I had a bit of an upset crampy stomach and the runs (xcuse that) and wondered if I have a bit of what the chooks have. I use rubber gloves when cleaning out the coup etc - but I do pat them and feed them by hand.

    Also - to confirm, they do sleep in there nesting boxes for some reason - they used to perch. I will now cover it up and force them to perch so the egg - as you say will come away. With the worming solution, cod liver oil and them perching I hope this works.. I'll try all. Also, from time to time they do have white in there dropppings - I gather this is urine.. is that a problem or some thing I should watch for? This is coming mainly out of the sussex chook, not the barred rock with the mustard droppings.. otherwise they seem pretty happy. The barred rock one with the mustard droppings isn't nearly as interested in eating either but she does look ok (healthy), just not ravinous when she eats llike the other.. just not overly fussed about food.

    Right thanks again - really do appreciate this!!!
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited September 2006
    Another one - can I get them (the worms) off the chooks? I had a bit of an upset crampy stomach and the runs (xcuse that) and wondered if I have a bit of what the chooks have. I use rubber gloves when cleaning out the coup etc - but I do pat them and feed them by hand.

    No
    Your upset tummy is probably because your worried about them and your stressed out
    Also - to confirm, they do sleep in there nesting boxes for some reason - they used to perch. I will now cover it up and force them to perch so the egg - as you say will come away. With the worming solution, cod liver oil and them perching I hope this works.. I'll try all.

    They are probably using the nest boxes because they are not feeling well and have a temperature.. and find the nest box warmer to sleep in

    Many birds do this .. don't worry
    Also, from time to time they do have white in there dropppings - I gather this is urine.. is that a problem or some thing I should watch for?

    No .. this is called urates.. all hens have it on top of their droppings ... some more than others
    This is coming mainly out of the sussex chook, not the barred rock with the mustard droppings.. otherwise they seem pretty happy. The barred rock one with the mustard droppings isn't nearly as interested in eating either but she does look ok (healthy), just not ravinous when she eats llike the other.. just not overly fussed about food.

    Right thanks again - really do appreciate this!!!

    Once they have been treated properly for worms she should be fine.. just keep a close eye on the vent of the bird laying the soft shelled eggs.. if she pushes too much she may prolapse... this is when the insides come out .. would you like me to post information on this incase it happens so you know what to do
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited September 2006
    Hi Sandy, OK, so I've done as you've told. Put the Cod Liver in the pellets (I did this last night) - and this morning she laid an egg! I dunno if this is a bit early for it to be effective - but great regardless. I have also bought the Levamisole worming stuff, added 5mls to 1litre of water and they are drinking that all today. According to the instructions this should do the trick. I did close over the nesting box and they didn't even think about going up on the perch - they just huddled in the corner together on the floor - I did feel bad for leaving them but I guess I need to keep to stick to the program and wait for them to work it out? They used to sit on the perch about one month ago - but for some reason have stopped.(may be it's the worms). Like you say it could be to keep warm - but it is summer here now and the temperature is in the 20's during the day and pretty warm at night.

    Thanks for the very knowledgable advice once more.

    Regards Viv
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited September 2006
    Not good that they are sleeping on the floor.. lower the perch... so they can get onto it easier.. they may be finding it too hard to balance.. make it wider for them

    I use wood that is 2inch by 3 inch and round off the corners... this way the birds sit and sleep and don't have to worry about balance

    Are the roosting areas too open or light or drafty for them

    Leave the nest boxes open for them until they are feeling better.. better to have them sleeping warm than catching a chill

    How high off the ground are your perches
    And how wide are your roosting beams for them

    Good that the girl laid an egg.. the cod liver oil may have been all that was lacking in her diet.. give it a week before we decide if it is the right thing ok..

    Remember to re worm the birds 14 days after the first worming.. to get rid of all the eggs that hatch in that time frame .. or they will be reinfested with the worms again

    The Levamisole will get rid of a number of worms not just the round worms.. never know it may not have been round worm doing the damage.. at least this should sort them out
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Hi Sandy - OK so I'll measure the perches etc and look at this closely.

    Now - I put the levamisole or "Aviverm" 5ml to 1 litre in the water. They drank a little and then stopped. I wasn't with them the whole time but I think they stopped drinking it.. as when they were wandering I saw them trying to drink water off a leaf etc. I didn't want them to be thirsty so after 8 hours of leaving the aviverm out for them, I changed it to clean water (per the instructions). Problem is they drank so much clean water I think they must have had no aviverm. Then in the weekend the droppings were very runny again. So I tried the aviverm again... and they still would only take small sips.. then stopped drinking it. Frustrating!! Then it rained really hard and of course - they drunk water that puddled around the coup and on leaves!

    So - I thought I better not do it again for a week or so until they are fully hydrated again as it may stress them out?

    To confirm also - only one chook as the mustard runny droppings. Definitely not the bigger chook (sussex), she is healthy eating, very energetic and seems 'happy'.

    May be I have to use a dripper to get it down there throats? That may be very stressful for them tho.

    To also confirm they are now laying daily and well - I think the Cod Liver is excellent which is great to see.

    Will the worms affect her laying (making her deficient in certain vitamins etc).

    Also - when you say they may reaffect themselves if we don't remove the eggs.. what do you mean by that? I haven't been eating any of the eggs cause I"m worried we'll get the residue levamisole in the egg? Also - have removed the mesh off the bottom of the coup and they love it!
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Now - I put the levamisole or "Aviverm" 5ml to 1 litre in the water. They drank a little and then stopped. I wasn't with them the whole time but I think they stopped drinking it.. as when they were wandering I saw them trying to drink water off a leaf etc. I didn't want them to be thirsty so after 8 hours of leaving the aviverm out for them, I changed it to clean water (per the instructions). Problem is they drank so much clean water I think they must have had no aviverm. Then in the weekend the droppings were very runny again. So I tried the aviverm again... and they still would only take small sips.. then stopped drinking it. Frustrating!! Then it rained really hard and of course - they drunk water that puddled around the coup and on leaves!

    Big mistake for newbies to do this ... don't worry not the end of the world

    Get some Cranberry juice.. make up some in water to taste .. then add the worming medication

    Did the instructions say to only leave it out for 8 hours.. or 24 hours

    My bird don't drink enough either in the 24 hours.. so I leave it out for 48 hours.

    You'll find putting the Cranberry juice makes all the difference in them drinking the water

    NEVER NEVER NEVER pour anything down their throats.. it will go into their lungs and you will kill them by drowing them... I know ... I did it .. I was once a newbie too

    REMOVE ALL OTHER SOURCES OF WATER.. lock them into a smaller area for this short time if you have to .. but don't allow them to drink any other water... don't allow them out of the coop area in necessary
    So - I thought I better not do it again for a week or so until they are fully hydrated again as it may stress them out?

    Never start and stop then start again.. what happens is their system becomes immune to the medication...

    Don't give them the medication for 5 days.. then do as instructed above ok.. with the cranberry juice.. confined for the time needed

    And remember the day you stop the medication.. count 14 days and do it all again.. then you shouldn't have to do it for 4 months...
    To confirm also - only one chook as the mustard runny droppings. Definitely not the bigger chook (sussex), she is healthy eating, very energetic and seems 'happy'.

    Doesn't matter.. worming needs to be done on any birds at least 3 times a year depending on how many bugs and slugs and worms they eat.. the birds in the battery cages don't need worming due to the fact that they don't get to eat these things.. but any bird outside eating bugs or worms.. must be wormed... every 4 months is a good time frame..
    May be I have to use a dripper to get it down there throats? That may be very stressful for them tho.

    Never do this .. as explained .... will cause drowing if not done properly.. and believe me its so easy to get it down into their lungs... sooo easy
    To also confirm they are now laying daily and well - I think the Cod Liver is excellent which is great to see.

    The cod liver oil give them extra viatmin D... like sun light .. sometimes its all the extra they need .. good that she is responding to it so quickly.. many birds with this problem do respond quickly

    Nice when you have a good outcome isn't it
    Will the worms affect her laying (making her deficient in certain vitamins etc).

    Yes if they are not treated.. they will actually eat the lining of the intestine and kill the birds.. they weaken the lining and it ruptures.. so sad to see birds when this happens.. the only thing you can do it put them down
    Also - when you say they may reaffect themselves if we don't remove the eggs.. what do you mean by that?

    All worms lay eggs inside the birds.. these are the eggs I am talking about .. this is why you need to re worm the birds in 14 days time.. to kill any of the larvae (worm eggs) that have hatched in that time frame.. the Levamisole doesn't get rid of the eggs inside the birds intestine... hope this explains it better for you
    I haven't been eating any of the eggs cause I"m worried we'll get the residue levamisole in the egg? Also - have removed the mesh off the bottom of the coup and they love it!

    On the packet of the medication it should have a withdrawl time period written down... if not don't eat the eggs for 5 days.. what I do is boil them up then each day I cut them up small and mixe them through the feed and give them back to the birds.. they love them

    I cut up the shells also and add them too.. don't even peel them cut cut them up

    The residue in the eggs is very minimal.. but you never know who may be allergic to the medication .. so always better to wait out the waiting period what ever it is

    Ahhhhh ... good you removed the mesh... bet they are happy girls now.. they love to dust bath and scratch around.. and they can't do that with mesh on the bottom of the coop

    If your worried that something might tip the coop over or dig under it.. put rocks around the outer edge and put large steel spikes into the ground to hold it in place.. like they do for tents ..

    This way anything digging will have the rocks falling into the hole theydig rather than being able to dig under the wire to get to the birds

    Just an idea.. totally up to you of course
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    OK, Sandy so we are looking under control. I will wait 5 days or so before I do the worming solution with Cranberry. This is brilliant to have this advice. Also, I have noticed a slight rattling when she breathes (very slight and seldom) and a bit of sneezing.. gosh I never thought chooks sneezed. So I've researched your site and found that it is probably Coiccidis (how ever you spell that). I will use cranberry with this also incase they don't like it iether. I gather I'll have to apply this separately to the worming solution so they aren't getting bombarded with too many drugs. It's called coxiprol (12% amprolium). You apply it for 5-7 days they say and then a smaller dose at 7-14. If you can provide any tips before i do this I would be really thankful. Overall I have to just say that they are very well looked after, I let them out morning and night, they eat very good laying pellets and mash, lots of greens & bugs.. and of course lots of love. I am always checking on them and my partner thinks i've gone crazy, I think it's time we had kids as I am obviously clucky!!

    Regards Viv
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Usually if you suspect Cocci you always treat the disease first then do the worming a week or so later..

    I would also strongly suggest you get Tylan soluable .. can get it at the feed store..

    Make up the Tylan soluable and Amprolium (Cocci med) in the drinking water... add Cranberry juice to cover the taste... give them the Tylan for 10 days... and follow the directions for the Amprolium

    Sometimes when birds get Cocci they also get a respiratory infection.. and this may be what has happened to your birds... so give both medications at the same time ok.. this will hit both problems on the head

    Then wait 10 days once the Cocci and Tylan have finished... giving clean clear water ... to flush their system.. and then give them the worming medication

    Once again.. put Cranberry juice into the drinking water .. remove all other sources of water... if you have to lock them up for this time.. then do it .. they mustn't drink any other water source apart from the medicated worming water

    Leave it with them for 24 hours.. if you don't think they have had enough to drink.. leave it for a further 12 hours.. just don't let them run out of water while they are having this ok

    Then let them out .. give them fresh clean water for the next 14 days..then re worm them again.. same thing as above.. and they should be ok.. worm free.... cocci free.. and respiratory free.. hopefully

    Please keep me posted
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Sandy - ok, so I left the levimasole in the water - with cranberry for them for two whole days. The first day I saw them sip a little but not much. When they drink it they flick there heads and try and get rid of it from there beaks. The second day (yesterday) I came home and they had spilt the water container so I don't know how much actually was consumed. Then I saw them go to the loo and there droppings were very dry. (only the healthy chook) I was watering the garden next to them and they were stressing out trying to get to the water on the garden - I thought they hadn't actually consumed any water for two days almost due to the look of there droppings and the way they were freaking out. So I gave them fresh water. They drank and drank like they had never before.

    So - this morning I get up and what do we have, runny mustard droppings (only in the sick chook) and a soft egg in the coop. So now I'm distressed again!!! And I"m going away for the weekend and wish I could stay. It's still only the one chook with the mustard droppings & very runny - almost like water but mustard colour. I fed them cod liver oil again in the feed, hoping the soft egg doesn't happen again - they were so distressed when I saw them this morning I feel so sorry for them when it happens!

    HOpe you can help...
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Are you sure your not making it up too strong.. what did the directions say for making it up ...

    Also did you put the Cranberry juice into the water and do a taste tests then put the worming meds into the water... if you like the taste they will too

    You also need to put rocks around the water containers so they don't push them over... if they do this on a really hot day your going to come home to dead birds

    Stop the worming process....

    Start the Cocci and Antibotics ... but please put the rocks around the water containers.. and put a couple of them out not just one

    Will there be anyone around the replace the water containers and medicatoin when your away.. if not then don't start the medication until you get back

    But.... understand ... they are getting sicker each day .. so be prepared to find some that may not recover ok... the longer you leave chickens sick the harder it is for them to recoup... the quicker you can treat them for what ever is wrong the quicker they respond and bounce back

    If you don't have any other choice but to leave them with enough fresh clean water and no meds.. then that's the way it must be.. but make sure when you get home to start them on the cocci meds and antibotics or you may lose some

    How long are you going away for.. if its more than a couple of days... they may be in trouble if it is Cocci...
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    OK I'm going away until Sunday night.. so I leave tonight Friday.

    I gave them the measured amount - 1 x tspn (5ml) to one litre of water, they just were not interested...

    I tasted the water and it seemed ok? You could just taste the cranberry.

    I'll need to start the Cocci treatment when i get back, I guess as I need to be there..to be sure they are ok... I hope she is going to be alright..
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    I hope so too...

    Let me know when you get back and how the Cocci meds went down.. what ever you do .. don't start them and then stop them ... add more cranberry juice to the water if you need to ... but don't stop giving the medication until they have had it for the time specified..

    Have a nice time away.. catch you later
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Hi Sandy, I'm back!

    She is alive and eating fine - they all look ok - as in energetic etc. Except she still has mustard poo! The other still has normal looking droppings. Do you think it is possible that only one can be infected? They live in such close quarters I wouldn't think so?

    When I first bought them home 3 months ago they did have bloody droppings and I was such an amateur I had no idea what it was. I read some where that they can get that when they move house... but I suspect this is cocci?

    I will go up the road at lunch time, get the Tylan soluable and Amprolium and follow the instructions carefully.

    I read some where that a disease called blackhead??? causes mustard droppings too, crumbs when you find out what they can get it gets very confusing!

    Otherwise they are drinking well, eating alot, getting fresh worms, greens, I'm cleaning the cage out regularly, doing what I can.

    I boiled up the eggs this morning as you said and they looked pretty fascinated by them!

    Are there any other healthy treats I can provide them for variety???

    Thanks so much for your help.

    PS Just got back from the store to get the meds etc, and I have been advised to take droppings samples and take them to a vet. Then I will know for sure what the problem is.. do you think this is a good idea?

    Also I have a friend that is a vet and has offered ivomec 5ml... she thinks I could add it to the food? Do you know if this is safe and ok to use? She is giving it to me this weekend. I am taking a fresh dropping tomorrow morning and getting it to the vet also.

    Regards Viv
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Hi Viv
    PS Just got back from the store to get the meds etc, and I have been advised to take droppings samples and take them to a vet. Then I will know for sure what the problem is.. do you think this is a good idea?

    good idea.. get them to check for Coccidiosis .. and worms... if they have Cocci treat them for that first...giving the Cocci meds and antibiotic at the same time..
    Also I have a friend that is a vet and has offered ivomec 5ml... she thinks I could add it to the food? Do you know if this is safe and ok to use? She is giving it to me this weekend. I am taking a fresh dropping tomorrow

    morning and getting it to the vet also.

    Regards Viv

    when you get the response back from the vet you should know if the birds need worming...

    When your at the vets ask them about the Ivermec 5ml .. and putting it into the water or feed for the birds... water is more likely ok

    Only if they show NO COCCI worm them .. but if they show Cocci .. treat them for that first ... very important ..

    DONT. worm them for 2 weeks after all the Cocci meds have finished.. and they have had time to flush the medication from their system.. too many drugs at once in their sytem may will kill them

    Please let me know what the vet says...
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    OK here goes - I took the fresh sample and the vet said he could see lots of things wriggling around! He said it had a Protozoa Trichomonas..deary me! So I just googled it and it said Cocci... I guess it could be this. The lab also have a sample and they are checking for other things so I'll wait for that result also.

    It's great to confirm every thing, altho it cost me $100.00!!! He has given me one syringe and I need to give the bird 1ml at a time morning and night for 10 days. I can't read thename of it very well.. looks like: metronidasole??? He says I need to drop it down its throat.. that is going to be so difficult. She loves bread so will try adding it to a small piece of bread with some thing to disguise it??? Any advice appreciated. (PS he's only given it for the one bird as the other seems fine.)
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    OK here goes - I took the fresh sample and the vet said he could see lots of things wriggling around! He said it had a Protozoa Trichomonas..deary me! So I just googled it and it said Cocci... I guess it could be this. The lab also have a sample and they are checking for other things so I'll wait for that result also.

    Ok.. so you need to treat them for the Coccidiosis NOW.. DON'T WAIT

    Its been too long already ..

    You can get Cocci meds at most feed stores.. if your in the US.. or Australia.. but only from the Vets if your in the UK

    The next post I will post information on Cocci.. ok... very important that you get Tylan antobitic also ... the birds immune systems are probably at risk by now.. ok

    It's great to confirm every thing, altho it cost me $100.00!!! If you can provide help with this that would be great. Should you eat the eggs when the bird has cocci?

    Not while they are on the medication and for a week after they go off it
    And is Cocci passed to Humans?

    NO
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Coccidiosis
    Coccidiosis is one of the oldest and most widely known diseases of poultry, Although there are good effective treatments and preventive medications (coccidiostats) for coccidiosis, it still occurs quite frequently in chickens today.

    Coccidiosis is a disease caused by the invasion of the intestinal wall with coccidia, a type of microscopic one-cellular animals caused protozoa.

    There are basically nine kinds of coccidiosis in chickens. One kind: Eimeria tenella, causes cecal coccidiosis, where blood is found in the two blind pouches (ceca) of the chicken-gut, and in chronic or healed cases a yellow core ("cigar") can be found in the ceca. The other eight kinds infect the small intestine.

    The two most important ones are Eimeria Acervulina and Eimeria Necatrix. Both damage the intestine severely and can cause morality, unthriftiness and loss of egg-production. Turkeys have their own kinds of coccidiosis, different from chicken varieties. There are seven species of coccidiosis found in turkeys.

    A mild coccidiosis infection is not very harmful and is actually necessary to create immunity in the future laying hen, if she is to live on the floor.

    Coccidiosis organisms develop little eggs (oocysts) in the intestine that are passed in the droppings and can then infect other chickens in the same pen. If chickens are held on wire floor, they cannot get in contact with droppings and will generally remain free of coccidiosis. Wet litter and warm temperature induce a heavy coccidiosis infection in the litter. That's why many coccidiosis outbreaks occur in the springtime (May, June).

    Preventively, drugs are given in the chicks starter and grower feed, from day-old until 12-15 weeks of age. Such drugs are called coccidiostats, because they inhibit the growth of the coccia, but leave enough coccidia alive to permit the build-up of immunity to coccidiosis in the growing pullet.

    In broilers, no immunity against coccidiosis is needed because of their short life span. Therefore in broilers we frequently use coccidiostats that completely inhibit coccida build up.
    Severe infections of coccidiosis will result in young chickens being sleepy and sitting with ruffled feathers. In cases of cecal coccidiosis, dropping will contain blood. Heavy mortality can result if treatment is not started immediately.

    Treatment consists of drugs such as liquid amprolium or sulfa drugs (Sulmet, ESB3 or Whitsyn), but one should be careful with sulfa drugs, as they can be toxic when given too long or in too high dosages. Never give sulfa drugs to laying hens. In E. Necatrix infectious blood may occur in the intestine and mortality can be 1% per week or more.
    E. Acervulina infections are less dramatic, but tend to be more chronic in nature with long term damage to the intestine and resulting in smaller, unthrifty pullets that do not produce enough eggs.

    If chickens appear sick and ruffled from coccidiosis, get a diagnosis at a diagnostic laboratory. It can be made quickly and medication started immediately.
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Antibiotics don’t cure Coccidiosis, but it will help to eliminate the possibility of a secondary infection taking hold of your bird, and it is sometimes the secondary infections that end up killing the bird

    These are some of the drugs you can use to treat Coccidiosis; it is not a complete list but will give you some ideas on what to ask for at the store when purchasing the medication

    Coccidiosis Medication Names
    Amprolium Soluble (Thiamine derivates)
    Baycox (Toltrazuril)
    Corid (Amprolium)
    Coxytrol (Sulpha drugs}
    Sulfamethazine
    Sulfaquin, (Sulpha drugs}
    Amprolium (Corid)
    Sulmet
    Tribrissen (UK)
    Sulfaquinoxaline or Sulfamethazine - water or feed; less safe; somewhat toxic to bone marrow. Withdrawal - 10 days
    Whitsyn
    Renosal Tablets
    Bactrim

    These drugs, under their trade names are readily available
    However, dose rates are variable and complex
    Most go into the drinking water
    The best advice on treatment is to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations and if in doubt contact the Department of Agriculture
    Baycox is expensive and usually considered to be the last resort used only with severe cases
    The program must be followed carefully to obtain the correct results
    If you give your birds too much, you will kill any immunity they have obtained
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Righto.. well I've had them on the medication Imentioned to you, but today I was on my 8th application.. almost the 5th day, (2 applications per day)and the runny mustard droppings are very wet and it has simply gone on too long. So, I went to the vet again today, and he gave me Batryil.. which I have started tonight.

    Apparently the dropping lab results came back and the batryl should do the business.. and sort them out, I hope. AS they do have a bacterial infection .. May be the first stuff he gave me wasn't quite the right thing..

    Also - they are laying two eggs a day (one each) and seem just as hungry and reasonable state.. except for a few ruffled feathers.. and runny droppings. But tonioght I noticed on one of them (they both have runny droppings now as I guess they've contaminated each other), the bigger chook has a few blackish looking blisters on her comb.. very unusual looking. Mainly on one side. Since the vets haven't dealt with chickens here in the city I can't get advice from them - it's a real pain.

    So do you or does any one know what these might be? I hope it's not bad.. poor thing. I wondered if it was a reaction from the drugs I have been giving her.. the metrizindasole.. or how ever you spell it.

    Right.. I'd really appreciate your feed back, I've just searched the net for help but can't see much..

    Cheers Viv
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Righto.. well I've had them on the medication Imentioned to you, but today I was on my 8th application.. almost the 5th day, (2 applications per day)and the runny mustard droppings are very wet and it has simply gone on too long. So, I went to the vet again today, and he gave me Batryil.. which I have started tonight.

    Baytril is very strong and it causes crop problems

    Get some active yoghurt and put this with their feed to help their gut relax ..

    Baytril will give them the runs and may turn their droppings green

    Baytril .... [FONT=&quot]3 drops Baytril twice daily (bantam) ** 6 drops (Standard) ** 9 drops (Large)[/FONT]

    IT DOES NOT CURE COCCIDIOSIS... so if your birds are being treated for this ailment and they are giving you Baytril to cure the Cocci... it won't .. look at my other posts about Cocci .. take a copy of this to your vet
    Apparently the dropping lab results came back and the batryl should do the business.. and sort them out, I hope. AS they do have a bacterial infection .. May be the first stuff he gave me wasn't quite the right thing..

    Bacterial infections are usually treated with [FONT=&quot]Spartrix or Flagyl and they are given Baytril to stop only the secondary infections.. it is not usually give to cure the bacterial infection [/FONT]
    Also - they are laying two eggs a day (one each) and seem just as hungry and reasonable state.. except for a few ruffled feathers.. and runny droppings. But tonioght I noticed on one of them (they both have runny droppings now as I guess they've contaminated each other),

    No its the baytril... it causes very loose droppings.. this is why you need the active yoghurt in their feed to help with this .. its quite dangerous.. they can be pooping out more nourishment than they are inputting
    the bigger chook has a few blackish looking blisters on her comb.. very unusual looking. Mainly on one side. Since the vets haven't dealt with chickens here in the city I can't get advice from them - it's a real pain.

    So do you or does any one know what these might be? I hope it's not bad.. poor thing. I wondered if it was a reaction from the drugs I have been giving her.. the metrizindasole.. or how ever you spell it.

    Right.. I'd really appreciate your feed back, I've just searched the net for help but can't see much..

    Cheers Viv

    The black spots are more than likely due to drop in their immune systems and they have now picked up POX

    The next post will be information about POX for you to have a read of

    Don't panic.. if its dry...
    Panic if they are wet....
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    FOWL POX

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    Also called:
    Avipoxvirus, DNA virus, also called “avian pox”

    Reference:
    http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/dissymp.htm



    Progression:
    Slow-spreading infection.
    Begins with cutaneous form and goes to diphtheritic form (GI and respiratory).
    It is a Virus
    It is spread by direct contact with infected birds
    Mosquitoes carry the virus from wild & other birds
    Use mosquito management programs to help reduce the mosquito population



    Transmission:
    Direct contact through skin abrasions.
    Mosquitoes may serve as mechanical vectors.

    Signs:
    Clinical signs/Necropsy: Cutaneous – Wart like nodular lesions on un-feathered skin of chickens and head/upper neck of turkeys.
    Lesions may also appear on feet, legs, around nostrils, and on eyelids.
    Lesions become yellowish, progress to thick dark scabs, and may coalesce.
    There are 2 main strains of the disease, the first appearing as greyish warty scabs on the comb, wattles and faces of the birds. The can result in serious disfigurement making such birds useless for showing. The second strain is more serious, causing cheesy substances to form in the respiratory passages, particularly the throat, which can cause death by asphyxiation

    Mortality:
    Low mortality, but decreased production.
    Diphtheritic – Lesions on mucous membranes of part or entire digestive and respiratory tracts. Caseous patches or proliferative masses. High mortality.
    Birds often recover from Fowl Pox but can remain carriers

    Diagnosis:
    Characteristic lesions. PCR is available.
    Histo -- Eosinophilic cytoplasmic inclusion bodies in epithelial cells on microscopy. Infected cells are also enlarged, with associated inflammatory changes.
    DDx: Infectious laryngotracheitis

    Prevention:
    Vaccine available
    Vaccinate soon after hatching up to 2 weeks of age. All should then be revaccinated at 12-14 weeks of age
    A vaccine is available which is applied with a two prong needle into the flap of skin on the wing. Unlike Mareks Disease where the vaccine must be given at day old, Fowl Pox vaccine can be given to birds of all age

    Treatment:
    There is no sure cure, other than treating the scabs with iodine and scraping the muck out of the birds' throats and painting with iodine
    Clear the eyes and beaks so they can see to eat and drink on their own, use warm water with a very weak solution of iodine in the water



    [IMG]file:///C:/DO***E%7E1/ANONYM%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]



    If it’s Dry Pox

    Treatment of bird
    You need to isolate the bird and put it into an uncrowded area, remove the scabs around the mouth and eyes so the bird can eat and see

    Symptoms
    Dry Pox, has small yellow warts that appear on the wattles, comb and face
    These increase in size as the disease spreads
    Dark brown scabs form, and then drop off


    Secondary infections
    To prevent secondary infections occurring you need to treat with 300 mg oxytetracycline (Terramycin) per gallon of drinking water for 3 days followed by vitamin supplement in the water, do not give the vitamins at the same time as the medication, one will cancel the other out


    Recovery
    The good news is that the birds naturally recover in 2 to 4 weeks usually, and are then immune to this particular strain of the disease


    Reinfection
    But some remain carriers and may become reinfected during molt and other times of stress; thoroughly clean the housing the bird has been in to remove all the infective scabs that may have come off


    Human and the Pox
    Another bit of good news, is that "chicken pox" in humans is caused by a different virus that has nothing to do the chickens, so no human health risk is involved

    Now... if its Wet Pox

    Treatment of the bird
    The bird may have a thick discharge that interferes with its breathing, so clear the airways with cotton swabs coated with iodine, otherwise just treat it the same as dry pox
    Swab lesion with Lugol’s solution of iodine

    Symptoms
    Wet Pox, has yellow cheesy lesions in the mouth and in the windpipe
    Vaccination is recommended in areas of large mosquito populations



    Treatment
    At least now you know what it is, Betadine is a good iodine to use on the sores
    Make sure the birds are getting fresh water every day, and fresh clean food every day

    With taking the antibiotics, your bird may get diarrhea, give it some yoghurt plain and unsweetened (live culture) will bring the bowel back into a normal function, mix 2 tablespoon with some dry food every day for the next 2 weeks



    Pox supportive treatment for blind birds

    If it is Pox.
    Supportive treatment is all you can do.
    If there are any that are blind, put them in a small area, make sure they can all find waterers and feeders, make sure you don't move them once they are all familiar with where they are. Leave them in peace and quiet as much as you possibly can to reduce stress, you do not want a cocci outbreak to complicate things.
    Standard treatment for Pox is nothing, as in DO NOTHING, they will recover, and a fatality from dry Pox is quite rare.
    The good news is, once they have recovered they are immune to that particular strain of Poxvirus and will never catch that again.
    Treat your mosquito population; this is what is causing the outbreaks
    Unless you bring in new birds from somewhere, where the Pox is of a different strain, you may very well never see this in your birds again

    I have never seen or heard of any waterfowl with Pox
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Hi Sandy, gosh I feel a bit bewildered.. I just bought the two girls for a bit of fun and good care, but I feel like it's taking its toll.

    First I tried the aviverm, that didn't work, (and the vet confirmed they didn't have worm problems), then the metrizondasole .. and that didn't seem to work, and now the batryl, I feel so sorry for the girls, they must be so toxic.

    And now pox?? Crumbs almighty!

    What ever happens to those running around our local park with no feed or nice bed to sit in!

    So - I guess I will just keep using the batryl, the only reason why I feel it should be right is he said the batryl will knock the particular bacteria infection they had..which showed on the lab result.

    I can only hope.

    Oh Sandy - or some one.. another thought.

    I've read how you need to treat for cocci separately from the antibiotics. I did buy some Coxiprol for cocci.. that is at home.. should I start them on that tonoight.. alongside the baytril? Or is that too toxic???

    Your help appreciated.
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    This sort of thing doesn't happen to everyone with chickens.. but it does happen to some.. and on these sort of forums you get to hear about the sad times..not the good times

    You'll find once you get over all of this drama... things should go back to being pretty normal with not too much happening...

    The good ol days hey... yep... when I first got poultry I got fully grown birds rescued from a battery then added ones I bought fully grown from an auction.. this is where you ususally get all the problems

    I bought in hens that had been badly handled and then tried to re build them.. they responded wonderfully.. but the battery life had taken its toll on thier little bodies.. and they didn't last too long .. before other things just took them one after the other.. absolutely nothing I could have done for them to help them.. so very sad

    The other birds purchased from an auction I bought in trouble to start with.. somebody elses baggage.. they became sick and was fighting a battle from day one with them.. I was new to poultry so didn't realize why they were getting sick and brought in even more rescue birds.. this added to the my problems with sickness

    I now know better.. I only every get day old birds and rare them and know exactly how they have been treated and know a heck of a lot more about chickens..and can pick up any thing that might be going wrong early and treat it quickly .. this makes a heck of a difference with the birds recovery.. if you can pick up quickly what the problem is and get treatment early

    This is what I have on hand to treat my birds.. and I don't need anything else... I have found that if I need more medication than I have then the birds are usually so sick they are not going to make it anyway ... so I do the most loving thing I can do for them and put them to sleep

    This is what I have on hand ....

    Sulphaquinn... for treating Coccidiosis

    Tylan 200 injection... for treating any Respiratory infection and most other infections

    Flagyl.. for treating Bacterial infections and treating Canker infections.. and Sour crop

    Cod Liver Oil.. for hens laying soft shelled eggs, and those that have lack of sun light and not responding to eating calcium to help them

    Yoghurt.. active yoghurt.. no sugar no fruit.. for any intestinal problems and Rickets

    Pytrethrum... concentrate.. for spraying the coop and birds in the event of lice or mites...

    Hydrated lime.. builders use it .. for putting down to get rid of slimey slugs and snails.. and getting rid of poultry smells

    A crop tube... this is an empty 20ml or larger syringe with some clear pliable plastic tubing (15cm long) attached to it .. to feed birds that can't feed themselves

    Human nail clippers.. for clipping beaks and nails if they need to be clipped for any reason

    Multi Vitamin powder.. used for pigeons.. for any times that they need a pick me up.. such as sickness.. molting.. or stress

    Electrolytes powder.. used for pigeons... used for any heat waves.. and times of any stress to build back their own body salts lost

    Poultry Dusting powder... used for any birds that I can't spray due to weather or illness to aleviate any lice they may have.. it usually never gets rid of mites

    Good luck with your bird... sounds like the vet doesn't know all that much.. first saying it was Cocci then saying its bacerial and giving you two totally different meds...

    Let me know how things go please... remember the active yoghurt for the bird.. it will need it with giving it Baytril..

    Take care
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    thanks a million for that.. isn't it crazy, it costs me up to $200 to go to the vet and you are free! So thank you very much!

    Not sure if you got the last bit I added on the last post..

    I do have some coxiprol at home and never used it .. could I give that to them alongside the Baytril? As long as it isn't too much? That means I"d have an antibiotic and an anticocci med.. which would be good?

    I didn't start with the coxiprol as thats when I got the tests done, and held off.
  • SandySandy Senior Member
    edited October 2006
    Definately start them on the Cocci meds along with the Baytril...

    Sometimes birds have Cocci and they get a secondary infection of a respiratory infection

    So its good to treat for both at the same time

    Good luck

    And you were right .. I didn't see that bit at the end of your last post.. so lucky you repeated it to me LOL

    Please keep me updated as to what is happening
  • vivnewzealandvivnewzealand Junior Member
    edited October 2006
    Help! Sandy I gave the girls the baytril dose as required (and have finished). and they are still on the cocci med, (amprolium), which needs to go for quite a lot more days, this morning one laid this massive egg.. it was very abnormal (huge) and she'd obviously kicked it around the cage - it wasn't in the nest where I normally find them. She has been out of the nest today as my partner saw her - but this morning and now in the evening she won't move out of the nest.

    I also walked around the pen and found one of her (I'm pretty sure it's hers as its bigger than the other chooks), soft eggs.. it was in the corner and I think it might be a day or so old. I also found this weird looking blobby thing on the ground, it looked like a placenta type thing, white and yellowy, sort of egg like.. very strange.

    CAn you help..? I have put clean normal water and taken the cocci med out as I am worried that it will all be too much. They have access to lots of oyster shell and grit... etc.

    The other girl seems fine...
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